Jun 5, 2010
Musings in June
earlier in the day, my aunt's financial adviser had some free movie tickets to the Prince of Persia. lets call her Amy (not her real name). Amy invited my aunt and i tagged along. we were joined by Amy's husband, Bob (not his real name).
being ever inquisitive, i struck up a conversation. they are a young couple, with 2 children aged two and six. like all parents, Amy and Bob want the best for their children. Bob is a stay-home dad in charge of bringing up the children plus assisting Amy in the technical aspect of the business. i think they wanted a third-person perspective, because they asked me about my background, and my opinion on how children should be brought up.
i shared with them how strict my parents were with me as i was younger. for example, if i scored 94/100 for a math paper, they would cane me 6 times. Amy and Bob were flabbergasted. i shared with them how i think that a child should be motivated using a balanced approach - carrot and stick. the kids of today are very smart. after watching jack neo's "i'm not stupid" movies, they know how to use the stigma associated with punishing your child as generated by the movie. some of them can blatantly tell their parents how they are facing a lot of stress at school/cannot withstand the pressure cooker environment when they actually arent putting in much effort. of course, we should be on guard against such children and not be led around by the nose.
we discussed a whole range of topics. they shared with me their job experiences (Bob was previously an army regular). all in all, it was a pleasant conversation until.. the sticking point.
at one point, Bob went: i am quite impressed with you. you are a person with a lot of positive values. are you a christian?
Me: erm.. hmmmm.. ahhhh..
Amy and Bob: *smile expectantly*
Me: this is a tricky question. are you sure you want to hear my answer?
Amy and Bob: *smile awkwardly*
funny how to them, a person with positive values must be christian. it is as if they think their holy book to be the source of all morals. interestingly, the first 3 commandments of Moses' tablet had nothing to do with morals. which part of you shall have no gods before me, you shall not make wrongful use of the name of your god, or remember the sabbath and keep it holy teaches you anything about morals? from these 3 lines, parallels between a petty, jealous, dogma-touting and bigotry-spouting tyrant can be easily drawn.. the other 7 commandments can also easily be condensed into the golden rule. so much for the 10 commandments being the definitive source of morals in this world.
in another gaffe,
Amy: the bible is the best guide there is to bringing up my children. everything that i need to teach my child, the bible has.
Me: *smile politely*
deep inside, i smirked an incredulous what?! are you sure you have read the bible in its entirety? perhaps they glossed over the more nasty Levicticus or Numbers passages advocating genocide, slavery, discrimination and what not. they're lucky i wasn't in a particularly combative mood today.
overall, they were decent, pleasant and hardworking people. but i was hurt (love to employ the same pathos arguments often used against me) at how they asked the 'are you christian?' question. after not providing a conclusive 'yes' reply, i could almost see their erecting of invisible barriers between us. they appear to systematically refuse to connect on a deeper level with someone outside their group. this in-group versus out-group mentality is very damaging for social relations and runs counter to the cosmopolitanism of our country. not being aligned to any particular faith does not make me less of a person. this is especially so for a faith so intolerant and dogmatic.
in another similar case, i was having a perfectly happy conversation with my colleague at work until she asked if i were a christian (why does this always happen to me?). it is as if i am some christian magnet or something. after i didnt provide the reply she wanted, i could instantaneously feel a chill emanating from her.
maybe next time i should launch the first strike. perhaps i should go up to a christian and go are you a rock-climber? or are you a mathematician? or are you 23 years old? and instantly discriminate anybody whose fault is simply just being different. hurt me so deep (yay used it again!). too bad, because unless i remember wrongly, Jesus taught his disciples not to judge others. have the lessons been lost along the way? seems that poking little boys' asses, excommunicating nuns who decide for abortion to save a pregnant mothers life and discriminating against non-christians, among others, have taken center-stage lately, as opposed to living a life of frugality or spreading love and compassion.
in the movie there was a scene whereby the main female character chided the male lead. dont do that the gods will be angry. the male lead replied, yeah. your gods, not mine. i wonder what Amy and Bob must be thinking when they watched the film.
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This has happened to me several times in my life - people assuming, naturally, that I am Christian simply because I appear to be rather (English) eloquent.
ReplyDeletehad an argument with my girlfriend once; she wanting to teach whatever kids we birth into this world biblical values and me, i advocate keeping the child's intrinsic atheism till he's old enough to choose while teaching him basic empathy and morality.
ReplyDeleteso i took her thru a week long bible study (special atheist curriculum) and at the end of it, she agreed that the bible isn't much of a morality guide after all and conceded.
I got the "are you christian" thing a lot too. and ain't it strange that it's atheists that are usually more well-versed than ur regular christian in the bible?
capital post, mate :)
@localatheist:
ReplyDeleteyeah funny how this is the case eh. i think correcting this popular misconception is of utmost importance.
@sen wei:
wow week long bible study (special atheist curriculum)? designed by you? am sure you wasted no time in illuminating the more nasty aspects of the bible, which she may have either unintentionally or purposefully glossed over.
indeed, a union between a christian and a non-christian will be fraught with difficulties. to bring up the child within the church or outside the church? to imbibe the child with christian ethics or secular principles? to donate that 10% tithes to the church or to use that money for investments/upgrading/installments? in my opinion, spending that 10% on books, even (or especially) those by christian philosophers, makes more sense to me than entrusting that money to some megachurch which promptly splurges it on some multi-million spanking new building.
thanks for the compliment. =)
i see you're managing this conundrum fine, and i really respect the fine blend of reason, wit, sarcasm and sincerity you've employed to achieve it.
Hey, interesting thoughts you have here. Although I am a Muslim, I could understand what you mean. In my opinion, a religion, no matter what it is in itself, is sacred, true and like your last post, urges people to do what is good and avoid what is bad. The Bible, Qur'an or the Sutras are holy books that is written as a guide. It would've been wrote to support the teachings of the religion, but in the end, it depends on how a person chooses to interpret it.
ReplyDeleteI disagree 100% on judging a person by what they choose to believe in. As long as they do not create problem/destruction/mayhem to others, they are free to believe in anything they wish.
I am a devoted Muslim (in my own way). But, I don't try to force people to believe in what I believe, I might give some opinion, but hey, you could disagree with me anytime. No matter what you choose to believe, I'll still treat you all the same - just as long as you respect what I choose to believe as well. People who create 'invisible' barriers with other people just because they don't believe what you do are actually those who don't understand their religion truly. If you could, name me one religion that prohibits its followers to befriend others of different religion or to treat them badly, or to give them 'the look' because they believe differently. You probably couldn't, because there aren't any. As I know, all religions teaches its followers to treat people with respect, and kindly.
Well, it could be just another opinion from a brat, but nevertheless, it's mine.
Dear Jansen,
ReplyDeletewhy are you judging these people? is it because they are christians and you have been hurt by a few christians before? why are you so quick to grab any opportunity you have to fault christianity?
I would like to share that, Christians are still human beings, they are not God and we tend to make mistakes as well, like for judging people. Not everyone will form an invisble barrier when talking to a non- christian. i dont, but i am a christian. perhaps the couple and the colleague you encountered didnt know how to handle a non- christian well. but hey, arent you judging them in this manner? and if you dont like the idea of them judging you as a non christian, why are u judging them as christians?
you seem to over generalise and make a big deal out of the mistakes of a few christians. i feel this is very damaging; both to other christians and to yourself as well. i know this is your blog, but respect other religions just as you claim to. Do not always pick on Christianity. how would you feel if i condemned climbing or another religion? you reap what you sow.
i think RESPECT matters alot.thank you for reading. and NO ONE is perfect. we all make mistakes. and yes, even christians. in fact, we have an even harder job because we are always judged with a double standard because of how Jesus was like. PERFECT, hence we strive to be like HIM, but making plenty of earthly mistakes, for the very fact, we are not GoD.
p.s: i put myself as anonymous because i am just a passer-by who feels a need to speak what i feel. My identity is not of importance, but the content is.=)
Take care.
Thank you.
Anonymous Christian: ZOMG, why are you judging jansen's judging of judgmental Christians! Matthew 7:12 says Christians shouldn't judge, but jansen's not Christian, so he's free to judge whoever he wants. he's not beholden to your Christian "double standard" (thank's mate, couldn't put it in words better meself). and jansen probably wouldn't care if say, i call climbing a sport for twats and repressed homosexuals. he's not going to get all emo and cry lamely for "RESPECT". Nope, he's going to debate me and tell me precisely why climbing rocks (no puns intended).
ReplyDeletenow, turn the other cheek and let me judge you some more, anonymous. jesus demands it :D
Take care.
Thank you.
@jansen: name's sen wAi, ahem. 4 looks more like an A, no? the girlfriend was mostly oblivious to the majority of the bible initially. interestingly, after i gave her a semi-thorough grounding in the bible, she brought some of the points i raised to her cell group - which did not give her good answers and told her not to question the book. she stopped attending the cell group and has not returned to church since. she's still christian though, but is leaning towards agnosticism.
ReplyDelete@anonymous:
ReplyDeletei adopt a principled stand against replying people who are unwilling to leave their names, yet insist on the blog-owner reading their works. an exception i'll make this instance, because there is a need to clarify some of your claims. i chose to deal with two of the more outrageous ones.
1. why are you judging these people?
ANS: i am not judging anyone. hence the title of the post, Musings* in June. these are just some of my reflections, of which i took great pains to ensure a civil tone. in fact, many of christian friends tell me they have no problems with the way with which i write. of course, sometimes they take issue with my misinterpretation of certain biblical phrases, and are quick to point out my mistakes. however, none of them come here anonymous, insist that i read their content (which i am not obliged to) and clamor for respect.
is your approach not counter-intuitive? let me spell it out for you: the more i feel coerced to accord respect, the less likely you'll win any. respect is to be earned, not demanded and expected to be served on a silver platter.
2. perhaps the couple and the colleague you encountered didnt know how to handle a non- christian well.
ANS: WHAT?! you mean a (christian) person needs to be taught how to handle a non-christian person?! to be taught!? is it not just a matter of treating each other with respect, and not do unto others what you do not wish to be done onto yourself? my point here is that, if you do not wish to be labelled as a christian, then do not go around labelling others (in some ways not obvious to you but visually deafening to me) as non-christians.
thanks for the you reap what you sow warning. as we (secularists/humanists) can pretty much observe, some Christian/Catholic institutions are pretty much on that receiving end.
@sen wai:
ReplyDeleteoh my bad for getting your name wrong. by your grace, please forgive me? =p.
actually, i honestly wouldnt care if, quoting your example, some dude comes up to me to assert that "climbing a sport for twats and repressed homosexuals". cool example though. i dont feel a need to defend it, because i know it stands up to scrutiny. naturally, i'll pity that person, because he has yet to know what being passionate about something entails, and how life-changing that experience is. instead of debating that person, i will most likely adopt an indifferent approach. *ouch*. sorry dude got you there didnt i? haha. academics cant stand nobody responding to their works. it hurts more than a rebuttal.
PS: i need to lay my hands on that special atheist bible curriculum. lolx.
you have my pardon, lol.
ReplyDeletewell, to be fair, calling climbing a sport for twats and repressed homosexuals probably constitutes trolling anyway - and the best course of action is to just ignore it (which wouldn't affect me either since i'm not a troll). of course, if i wrote an actual thesis on why climbing sucks, getting no attention is probably really hard to handle, as you've pointed out. but then again, you'd probably respond to a well-written screed against climbing, atheist, skeptic and rationalist that you are :)
well, my approach to talking about the bible to a theist is story-oriented. i usually start by asking a christian what his/her favourite verse or parable or story is - and then proceed to deconstruct it if i'm able to. my gf's fave was the story of jesus and the fig tree (something about the power of prayers - i see it as the murder of an innocent fig tree which wasn't even in season by jesus). that was easy. then i go to genesis; cain and abel's a good one (god likes you more if u kill something rather than grow something for him), the curse of ham (all his descendants doomed to be slaves because he accidentally saw his drunken dad unrobed), the logistic impossibility of noah's ark (good working knowledge of evolutionary geography required to talk about this)... then onward to exodus, there's the hard question on why god hardened the pharoah's heart when he's ready to let the jews go before the 10 plagues are done with (maybe because it might seem a tad bit anticlimatic if pharaoh gave in before god get to show his entire hand; a christian friend simply explained "it's for god's glory")... i believe it is easier to get thru to a christian if you go through these stories with him or her, stories which they might be familiar with from their mentions in sermons but have not read in full - it alters their impression of the bible completely, and over time, they will start thinking and start asking questions of their own.
it's probably also helpful to point out the human hands in the bible's writing, instead of outright dismissing it as a whole lot of confused, bronze age scribbles. fighting bible literalism will probably do more in the long run for human rights and rationality then trying to tell people that god is tosh. they won't fault god, but they'd readily fault human scholarship in the authorship of the bible.
phew that's long.
hi sen wai,
ReplyDeletethanks for the heads up!
your blog is a masterpiece. will continue to frequent it for inspiration!
Hello Jansen,
ReplyDeleteI read your article on Facebook and was led to your blog. I like the points you put up..its like a voice I never had. I also like your style of writing.
Thank you for sharing your views.
Hi T T Tan,
ReplyDeleteI should be the one thanking you for reading instead. Hope I made an impact, that's all that matters.
Have a great day =)